Big Stirling Engine

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:50 pm

Hello to all,
First off, thank you to Boydhouse for sponsoring this fine forum giving newbie’s like me a chance to read, learn and ask questions to some incredibly talented, experienced and intelligent folks. I just joined the forum having recently fully contracted Stirling Motor disease, but have known about the condition for years. Having purchased some simple toys from eBay and other hobby stores, I have a couple of applications that could use a motor that is powerful enough to operate a fan. I found a company called Hyporex Technologies Inc. currently shipping three Stirling motor units out of Pakistan (http://www.hyporex.ca). They offer a gas burner fan, a gas heater with Stirling engine fan, and what they call a “Big Stirling Engine” for about what one can pay for a finely crafted toy engine ($500 US w/ free shipping). Well wife let me go buy one for my B-Day (tomorrow!). So my question(s) to the group, does anyone have a Hyporex “Big Stirling Engine” and/or what do they think? Please spill your guts!!! I searched the forum but haven’t found anything on the searches, nor my reads (not done yet!)…

Image

I placed my order on September 13 (actually September 12, but it was almost midnight California Time) and have had some good email correspondences with a Mr. Mohammad Sultan. No shipment notices as of yet but I will keep all informed, if there is any interest from the group…

They also are offering a pre-order (name and email only; no money) for their “Super-Stirling Engine”, a 1.5hp/1KW Power Generator with some impressive claims. Additionally they have a simple forum on their web page asking the community what they would like to see in a “Super – Stirling Engine” and one even bigger; 10kWatt off of a 20BTU flame. Please go read their forum before you blast me about conservation of energy and/or how small a BTU is! http://www.hyporex.ca/stirling-forum.php IR just an EE, but come on! (Yes Vamoose, my next stop is to help you with your optimal power output controller idea; I have extensive experience in these kinds of controls for lasers and other devices)

The 10kW off of 20BTU is why I am asking my questions to the forum (suddenly very concerned about my purchase!). They sell the units on eBay and their customer feedback is the only reason I gave them my credit card. Feedback has been 100% positive on 84 feedbacks. And I read them all…

From what I know about the design of the “Big Stirling engine”, they started building these type of engines 40 years ago by their grandfather who imported a “KyKo fan” from Europe. Now they have started rebuilding them with their own modifications. None the less, I think the unit looks nostalgically beautiful from the photos, and wish the company the very best of luck. If it doesn’t fit my applications, it will look nice next to my wife’s gasoline pumps…

Your comments are welcomed! And let me know if I should continue the saga with some testing results…
-J
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

vamoose
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by vamoose » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:07 pm

Hey NerdyEE'
Checked out the links and website. I see what you r saying about the 20 BTU's
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/ener ... to_kWh.htm
and this is at a 100% thermal conversion efficiency, wth.
They must have lost more than a few zeros in the page translation.
Anyway I hope you still get a working engine from them nonetheless.

Am looking forward to your thoughts on the mppt topic. Conceptually I understand how it would work, but practically and electronically I am treading water. My stepfather is a recent Arduino convert, which could be handy, so I might have to harass him for some assistance when I get a bit more familiar about the process.

Also I agree, two thumbs up from me to Boydhouse as well, (and others...thanks!)...
vamoose
Last edited by vamoose on Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Junkie
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:32 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by Junkie » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:54 am

When they first started selling these I'm sure they were claiming 1KW from the model above....
I'd say their power claims are questionable at best, but it does look like a nice engine if it runs and nothing else.
http://www.scraptopower.co.uk My web site, Stirling engines and AE stuff.

Ian S C
Posts: 2221
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:15 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by Ian S C » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:33 am

Vamoose, did you see the last entry, where the figure has changed to20K BTU/hr, might be hitting nearer the mark if that one is right, still looks dodgy to me! I'm just a sceptic, don't take it personal. Ian S C

vamoose
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by vamoose » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:55 am

yep right I see Ian

So I just did a couple quick calcs and, If you were to have 20k BTU/hr flame powering an engine that was 20% percent efficient after all your combined exhaust and engine losses (and it would have to be fairly pressurised I would think, or fairly large) and a generator that’s 90% efficient you might expect 1.055kWh of power generation. (200k BTU – 10.55kWh).
I think these numbers are about right...

vamoose

hotair
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:12 pm

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by hotair » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:25 pm

Up to about 1990 these engines were sold in Pakistan under the name "The National Fan" powered by the heat from a paraffin burner. They are a copy of the British made KyKo ventilating fan which was sold in India in the 1930's. The hot air driven fan was superceeded by a National fan with an electric motor.

I have a National Fan which runs well. I doubt if it generates more than 10 watts of power.

Bob

Ian S C
Posts: 2221
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:15 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by Ian S C » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:41 pm

Vamoose, 20% is very efficient for these motors, I would say nearer 5%. Or another way is to look at about 1W per CC for an unpressurised Stirling Engine. Ian S C

NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:30 pm

Thanks Gents,
I had not noticed he had changed his post from 20BTU to 20kBTU. Suspect he looked at my calculations a bit closer and hammered his engineers...
Shall see!
-J
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:14 pm

Ordered mine September 13. Got a shipping notice the other day that it is in Pakistan customs...

I am SO EXCITED!!!! I have so many tests to conduct and will share the results here...
-J
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:03 pm

Greetings all!
I checked my tracking and the status has changed to: Item sent to destination country
Getting closer (4-6 more weeks!)…

Interestingly, the moderator for the Hyporex forum has decided to delete my posts due to criticism. Read the re-posing below and let me know if I was too critical… :mrgreen:
-J


NerdyEE wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Sept 27, 2012:
Hey Hyporex,
I noticed you dropped the Hydrogen post (just as I was about to post some questions) and have drastically changed your initial post where 20BTU is now 20kBTU. I also see you changed from a 10kW system back to the 1kW with some "FM" to generate 10kW from this 1kW system. Conservation of energy Hyporex; I still would like to know how you get 10kWatts from less than 6kWatts of energy?!???!?

So now that the playing field is different, let's do a back of envelope calculation, shall we...

So, if you were to have 20kBTU/hr flame powering an engine that was 20% percent efficient after all your combined exhaust and engine losses (and it would have to be fairly pressurized I would think, or fairly large) and a generator that’s 90% efficient you might expect 1.055kWh of power generation. Thus I also would expect 200kBTU/hr to get 10.55kWatts. You are still one decade off...

So if this is air cooled, where is all that heat going? How do you air cool 20kBTU/hr??? Let alone 200kBTU/hr...

How much energy does it take to break H2O into HHO? How much energy does it take to fill a bottle of Hydrogen with pressure (3000psi)? Will this system need ultra pure water? No wonder you dropped that post...

Sorry if this post seems so skeptical and/or short tempered, I'm writing this on my iPhone...

Cheers!
-J

P.S. Does the Big Stirling run on 2BTU as advertised???


{Editors Note: I was using my iPhone, have fat fingers and didn’t notice the forum got major edits and rearrangements while I was writing. Was hard to see and thus the below doesn’t flow well with his multiple responses and edits…}

hyporex wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Sept 27, 2012:
We just moved never droped this title. We will update our response as time would allow.

NerdyEE wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Sept 27, 2012:
Then if the hydrogen topic is deferred (not on list of posts; moved where?), would you mind addressing some of the motor questions (Big, Super and Godzilla Stirling) I have asked? They are not ALL rhetorical...
-J



hyporex wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Sept 27, 2012:
Hydrogen topic has been moved here under "Alternative Green Energy". We try our best to answer all questions but have to fulfill pending orders first. Thank you!


hyporex wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Sept 27, 2012:
Thank you for your post, we really appreciate your time and effort. Now, first of all, you need to understand that we have set-up this forum for open public discussion. All of our projects excluding existing products for sale are at "CONCEPTUAL" stage. We intend to research, develop, produce, market, and sell finished products only with complete technical specs. pictures and videos as proven technologies. This forum is not intended to educate others but to discuss posibilities/applications.

{Editors note: this post area is now called Alternative Green Energy. Go see http://www.hyporex.ca/ and view all the new products coming in 2013 that violate the conservation of energy. Suspect these initial claims will be changing soon…

So then I decided to ask why my posts were being deleted…}


http://green-energy-technologies.108242 ... p2p37.html

NerdyEE wrote [Super Stirling Engine] Oct 1, 2012:
Awesome updates to the web page Hyporex! Really like the new products and the price change to $1/watt. Can't wait to be the first on my block to own one!

So why did my other posts get deleted from the forum?
Cheers!
-J


hyporex wrote [Hydrogen Gas] Oct 1, 2012:
We welcome appreciation and encouragement but after 10 years of hard work, R&D, our team will not allow skepticism. As previously mentioned, this forum has been set-up for consumers to discuss possible applications. The only products for sale are and would be finished products with pictures/videos and technical specs. rest of it is info on our upcoming inventions. Thank you!

Editors Note: This post from Hyporex was soon deleted and my post modified to delete the question of why my posts are being deleted...(WOW!)
So, pretty scary when a forum moderator has to delete and even edit postings to make his/her forum and products more marketable. I truly feel sorry for these folks as I have been trying to help them and form a business relationship (hope to sell 100 units a year). They are not interested in my long term business. If they can’t be challenged at a conceptual level, how are they going to face a world market?

Hopefully they will pick up on these final words of help from a more intellectual forum via the Google and Bing search engines. Learn words like: ISO 9001, ISO 14001, UL, CSA, VDE, & CE. Hire someone that knows English to do your marketing and sales; example from WEB page (and eBay listings):

[tab=30]If fan is tempered with its seals, or any kind of tool is used on it, that would automatically avoid your warranty.

Use TAMPERED not TEMPERED, and VOID not AVOID; yet sentence structure is still awkward. And before you flame me in return, I am not an ESL!

So I have working plans for a Robert Fludd Water Screw, an Orffyreus Wheel, and a Zeromotor. Do I have any buyers???

SIGH!
-J

P.S. The aforementioned designs appeared to work on paper, through various obfuscated external energy sources; eventually understood to have been incorporated into the machine…
Last edited by NerdyEE on Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

vamoose
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by vamoose » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:15 am

Thanks Ian, that 1watt per cc is a handy reference, cant remember if I've read it before but I’m locking it in this time.

The 20% was generous.
I'll do another more realistic breakdown of their 10kW Engine claim (that seems to have now been retracted)

20k BTU/hr = 5.8614213889kWh
therefore at a 5% engine efficiency conversion with an 80% (more realistic) efficient generator, you will get-
5.8614213889 x 0.05 x 0.8 = 0.23455kWh
of electrical power to be used on something that will have its own efficiency losses...

I hope its not this low, but to quote J,
'SIGH!'

vamoose

(also J, i am really interested for you to get your engine. I'm sure your going to test the hell out of it....)

NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:47 pm

vamoose wrote:also J, i am really interested for you to get your engine. I'm sure your going to test the hell out of it....
Thanks Vamoose for the encouragement!
I wonder if we can get the VMPPT done before it arrives. If so, it will be abused upon arrival... ;-)
Built up a resistive heater to test watts in - spin out on this Big SE to validate the 2BTU specification. I know, crazy electric SE...
IRaNerdyEE
-J
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

Ian S C
Posts: 2221
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:15 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by Ian S C » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:57 am

Vamoose, the power generated by a small generator that would be coupled to this motor would quite possibly be about 50% of the shaft/ mechanical power, maybe more, maybe less, little generators are not that efficient when comparing them with big ones.
I hope our discusions here don't endanger the aquisition of the motor, some people have thin skins. Ian S C

vamoose
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:16 am
Location: Australia

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by vamoose » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:42 am

Hey Ian
I am hoping, from what NerdyEE has said, that the item has been dispatched and is in transit (via sea I guess, I hope there are no bananas on board). If they are a company run by people of repute, and are in someway reading this topic, then they could do well to spend a bit of time looking at all the really great knowledge available throughout the forum. As a newbie myself, I find it to be a total goldmine of information and inspiration... every time I tune in I learn something.
Though maybe they're more interested in selling perpetual voodoo engines powered by snake oil. I guess this is one way to make an 'honest' living.

The initial 20% engine & 90% generator efficiency was intentionally overstated to give them plenty of benefit and wiggle room for their claim. I was hoping it would be better than 5% engine efficiency though, but I suspect you would be right.
Also I agree, It's definitely true that many generator devices, have shaft to wire losses that can be 'shockingly' high, my combined figures could be possibly misleading.
But with a quality (potentially expensive), modern, rare earth magnet generator, correctly sized and configured, it should be possible to eke out an 80% turnaround. It would definitely take more than bunging on something to this and that, and then crossing ones fingers (this is often my preferred approach). I find fencing wire, 100 mile an hour tape, and paddle-pop sticks, are key components in many of my device design strategies...
vamoose

NerdyEE
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:39 pm
Location: Pleasanton, California, USA

Re: Big Stirling Engine

Post by NerdyEE » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:37 pm

SHIPPING UPDATE OCT 7: Receive item at office of exchange in Destination Country
[hr] If crime doesn't pay, does that mean my job is a crime?

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