High powered Stirling going into production

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
stedevil
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby stedevil » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:03 pm

theropod2 wrote:I know all this and live with it daily. My battery bank, and large AC inverter, are housed in a separate steel structure and indeed the feed cables from my 3,500 amp hour bank to inverter are massive 00 gauge. They are only 1.5 meters long and are fed from huge solid copper buss bars connecting all the individual battery cabling. Each battery is fused at 35 amps. The alternating current from the inverter is then fed to the house and all loads as AC travels better than DC.

At the C/20 charging rate I can safely pump 175 amps into that bank, which divided between the 8 12V batteries is 21.9 amps each. My entire charging capacity (wind, solar and diesel) cannot attain this limit. Where this 4 amp charging rate comes from I have no idea. Good lead/acid batteries can live at the C/20 rate just fine and can take up to C/40 for short bursts.


I asked you before if your battery bank was up for the job. You aswered yes but I assume you missunderstood the actual question. So rephrasing, is your battery bank up to the job of receiving 5kW of CONTINUOUS power? From the numbers you provide yourself the clear answer is absolutely NO!

417A divided on only 8 batteries will be 52A per battery, instantly blowing all your 35A fuses. And I have no idea what a 00 gauge cable is, but unless its speced way above your target charge current of 175 A continous, the 417A at 12V might burn all your cabling to a crisp as well. You would need to increase your batterybank from 8 to about 20 batteries as well as all the cabling to match to just retain the characteristics of your present setup.

So before continuously critisizing hightech 300V batteries, please sit down and think through exactly how much power 5kW continous output actually is. There are very valid reasons why 300V is needed, not the least being both carbon footprint as well as monetary cost for the copperwiring required at 12V vs 300V alone. Or do you mine and smelt copper locally via energy from your solar panels?


Where's the longevity data for these batteries, and are they being used off grid?


I assume you can write them and ask? And please post the info back here as others might find the data interesting as well.


I really don't give a rats backside. I'm not the one defending this outfit and feel no burden or motivation to find out.


So then why do you demand of me to do something for you that you are not prepared to do yourself? Im not your little bitch you can order around, so please start acting a bit more grown up and civilized. My interest for this is for on-grid usage, so off-grid details are irrelevant to me. Thus people interested in off-grid details should probably ask the original source them selves instead of agressively demanding it from others. Logical wouldn't you say?



If it isn't applicable for off grid use no biggie. Little is. There are bloody huge swathes of the world where my off grid situation is the norm rather than the exception. Of course those folks don't have a pile of money to invest in a system in hopes it will actually work.


Well, the complete unit is specifically design as portable, providing high amounts of electricity, 2 times as efficient as a diesel generator, using non fossilized fuels, with 10-year maintainance intervals. So it's definitely interesting for off grid. However, to RELY on it off grid, it probably needs widespread fieldtesting for 5-10 years.

Seriously? Generators lose function with a coil failure


Seriously? Ive never even heard of a friend or aquintance ever having a coil failure in their car generators. And that is a part normally receiving 0 maintainance during 15-20 years of using a modern car. Sure, freak things can always happen. The genious probably won't stand for a direct hit by a meteorite either, but neither will your current setup.

, if this computer crashes the system dies and all the associated technology has inherent failure rates.


Again, everthing can fail, but its not exactly going to be using MS Windows or similar crap.
You can read yourself about their open source sturdy monitoring soft and hardware for the professional research field. Links on their webpage.

No matter what is built it will eventually fail. I've yet to see anything to convince me otherwise.


They are not claiming it will run forever, but they do claim 20k hours maintainance intervals. Its pretty darn high, but it doesn't break your logic of that everything eventually fails.

Yep, and if the grid is available it's cheaper, and more efficient, to use it to charge the batteries in such a car.
[/quote]

I have no idea about what the electric power costs in the USA, but here in Sweden it is by European standards low (~20c/kWh including all taxes and transfer fees etc), but that is still 6x more expensive per kWh than firewood. At anything better than 15-20% percentile output as electricity I can thus, by selling the electricity to the grid, actually earn money AND heat my house for free in the winter. Or, I can charge a future electric car for free, while I in any case heat my house and/or hot water, using 100% non fossil fuel.

As for efficiency, as much as 10-15% of electricity is lost during transfers on the grid, so local production is very much an advantage if possible. The matter is of course a bit different if one lives in warmer climates, but googling for "heat driven cooling" might be interesting for those living in far warmer areas than I do.

theropod2
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:05 am

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby theropod2 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:51 am

stedevil wrote:
theropod2 wrote:I know all this and live with it daily. My battery bank, and large AC inverter, are housed in a separate steel structure and indeed the feed cables from my 3,500 amp hour bank to inverter are massive 00 gauge. They are only 1.5 meters long and are fed from huge solid copper buss bars connecting all the individual battery cabling. Each battery is fused at 35 amps. The alternating current from the inverter is then fed to the house and all loads as AC travels better than DC.

At the C/20 charging rate I can safely pump 175 amps into that bank, which divided between the 8 12V batteries is 21.9 amps each. My entire charging capacity (wind, solar and diesel) cannot attain this limit. Where this 4 amp charging rate comes from I have no idea. Good lead/acid batteries can live at the C/20 rate just fine and can take up to C/40 for short bursts.


I asked you before if your battery bank was up for the job. You aswered yes but I assume you missunderstood the actual question. So rephrasing, is your battery bank up to the job of receiving 5kW of CONTINUOUS power? From the numbers you provide yourself the clear answer is absolutely NO!


Why would I need 5Kw continuous charging power? Who does? Does your home draw a continuous 5Kw? I doubt it very much. It would be like buying a Porsche to haul firewood. My battery bank does what it is supposed to do and does the job for ME. I've yet to see anything that makes this 300V DC system superior.

417A divided on only 8 batteries will be 52A per battery, instantly blowing all your 35A fuses. And I have no idea what a 00 gauge cable is, but unless its speced way above your target charge current of 175 A continous, the 417A at 12V might burn all your cabling to a crisp as well. You would need to increase your batterybank from 8 to about 20 batteries as well as all the cabling to match to just retain the characteristics of your present setup.


Moot. See above.

American wire gauge LINK

My current setup works in a real world application, supplies our needs and doesn't need 417 amps.

So before continuously critisizing hightech 300V batteries, please sit down and think through exactly how much power 5kW continous output actually is. There are very valid reasons why 300V is needed, not the least being both carbon footprint as well as monetary cost for the copperwiring required at 12V vs 300V alone. Or do you mine and smelt copper locally via energy from your solar panels?


I'm critical of the idea that specialized batteries are required, and question the need for constant 5Kw output. I've thought about this issue for the last 14 years, and I sure as hell know what works and what doesn't. May I suggest it is not I that needs to have a sit down thinking session. You're dismissing my years of direct experience based on vaporware and empty assertions.

No I don't smelt my own copper, and I fail to see your point. Do these guys smelt their own copper? My copper wiring is the minimum length and rated far above the projected demand. I see no need to run 300V DC to my house. I would bet $1,000 US that my off grid system contains less copper, and other heavy metals overall, than this system, and I know for a fact my US made lead acid batteries cost less to ship to my house than these super batteries would, and produced far less greenhouse gases in said shipping than would these super batteries. My batteries are completely recyclable and can be replaced in a day.

Explain how 3000 watts at 12 V DC is going produce a greater carbon footprint than 3000 watts at 300V DC. I'd really like to see how that works.

Where's the longevity data for these batteries, and are they being used off grid?


I assume you can write them and ask? And please post the info back here as others might find the data interesting as well.


I really don't give a rats backside. I'm not the one defending this outfit and feel no burden or motivation to find out.


So then why do you demand of me to do something for you that you are not prepared to do yourself?


I'm not the one playing the fanboy here, and I have made no assertions regarding this great and wonderful outfit. That's all on you. It's up to you to either defend this company or not. If you want to defend them do so. If not don't. It just comes off a little hallow to make all these statements and refuse to go any deeper when challenged. I've seen these wild claims too many times to buy a pig in a poke. I'm not demanding anything of you.

Im not your little bitch you can order around, so please start acting a bit more grown up and civilized.


Perhaps you can show me where I wanted you to be "my little bitch", or where I "ordered you around". Those would be complete fabrications on your part. I'm asking you to support your assertions. If that's too much of a task for you just say so.

My interest for this is for on-grid usage, so off-grid details are irrelevant to me. Thus people interested in off-grid details should probably ask the original source them selves instead of agressively demanding it from others. Logical wouldn't you say?


No, I wouldn't say. I didn't broach the subject. You posted the information here. Defend those assertions or not. I could care less.

If it isn't applicable for off grid use no biggie. Little is. There are bloody huge swathes of the world where my off grid situation is the norm rather than the exception. Of course those folks don't have a pile of money to invest in a system in hopes it will actually work.


Well, the complete unit is specifically design as portable, providing high amounts of electricity, 2 times as efficient as a diesel generator, using non fossilized fuels, with 10-year maintainance intervals. So it's definitely interesting for off grid. However, to RELY on it off grid, it probably needs widespread fieldtesting for 5-10 years.


Thank you. Since my entire line of questioning was how it could be used in an off grid situation, and there has been ZERO testing in such an application, I feel my skeptical position is highly pertinent.

Seriously? Generators lose function with a coil failure


Seriously? Ive never even heard of a friend or aquintance ever having a coil failure in their car generators.


What utter tripe, and completely anecdotal. Automotive alternators suffer regular failures, and these aren't limited to coil breakdowns. Rotors fail, brushes burn up, diodes fail, bearing let go and even cases can break. Around here we have these shops that specialize in automotive alternator repair. I wonder how they stay in business with these "never fail" units in operation.

And that is a part normally receiving 0 maintainance during 15-20 years of using a modern car.


Care to cite a case study where the average car alternator will last 15-20 years, or is this more empty assertion?

Sure, freak things can always happen. The genious probably won't stand for a direct hit by a meteorite either, but neither will your current setup.


Nope, I doubt a bolide impact would do my system any good, but I'd be able to get it back up and running without having to wait for a shipment from Europe.

, if this computer crashes the system dies and all the associated technology has inherent failure rates.


Again, everthing can fail, but its not exactly going to be using MS Windows or similar crap.
You can read yourself about their open source sturdy monitoring soft and hardware for the professional research field. Links on their webpage.


Don't care, still.

No matter what is built it will eventually fail. I've yet to see anything to convince me otherwise.


They are not claiming it will run forever, but they do claim 20k hours maintainance intervals. Its pretty darn high, but it doesn't break your logic of that everything eventually fails.


The CLAIM is the issue. You have already stated that it needs 5-10 years of testing for off grid application. How the hell can 20K hours be claimed without condition specific testing? Short answer, it can't and it hasn't. It's an empty assertion.

Yep, and if the grid is available it's cheaper, and more efficient, to use it to charge the batteries in such a car.


I have no idea about what the electric power costs in the USA, but here in Sweden it is by European standards low (~20c/kWh including all taxes and transfer fees etc), but that is still 6x more expensive per kWh than firewood. At anything better than 15-20% percentile output as electricity I can thus, by selling the electricity to the grid, actually earn money AND heat my house for free in the winter. Or, I can charge a future electric car for free, while I in any case heat my house and/or hot water, using 100% non fossil fuel.


The average cost of electricity here is about 9.1 cents US per kilowatt hour. So my previous statement is true. It would cost more to run this system to charge a car, or anything else, than available power via the grid.

Charge that car for free? Even firewood has a cost if you cut it yourself.

When the system does eventually fail who shows up to make the repairs? I note you failed to address this critical matter.

As for efficiency, as much as 10-15% of electricity is lost during transfers on the grid, so local production is very much an advantage if possible. The matter is of course a bit different if one lives in warmer climates, but googling for "heat driven cooling" might be interesting for those living in far warmer areas than I do.


That absorption cooling you're talking about is not for the timid as anhydrous ammonia is the working fluid in most such systems. A leak in a residential setting could kill everyone inside. Our absorption refrigerator uses this principle, and the working portion is isolated from the living quarters by an air tight cabinet with outside air venting for both intake and exhaust.

Distributed generation is THE way to go for all grids everywhere.

Look, I'm highly skeptical about everything and anything. If there isn't empirical data to support a position I dismiss it out of hand. There is no such data and I do summarily dismiss it.

R

stedevil
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby stedevil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:12 pm

theropod2 wrote:Perhaps you can show me where I wanted you to be "my little bitch", or where I "ordered you around".


Lets start with this.

You continuously state that I should spend time to check up information relevant to YOU but NOT relevant to ME. You also continuously state how it is some kind of job I have to do. That is an arrogant spoiled brat point of view. The thing I have done here in this thread is to share the information I have gathered that pertains to my situation, in case it helps someone else, nothing more, nothing less.

So if you want to continue to make an ass out of yourself by demanding I do this or that for you and continue with childish "challenges", sure, go ahead. I'm just not playing. Anybody seriously interested in this technology will in any case be grown up and mature enough to contact the manufacturers them self to get info about their specific usage scenario. Email, web forms, phone numbers are readily available.

Why would I need 5Kw continuous charging power? Who does? Does your home draw a continuous 5Kw? I doubt it very much.


1) This started with YOU wondering why anybody would ever need a 300V battery WITH the known fact that the output of the Genious IS 5kW (it doesnt matter if YOU need it or not, the 5kW is there). By now I think it should be clear to all that you need somewhere around 20 huge buss(?) 12V batteries or 50-100 regular car batteries, minimum, to manage the job of one single 300V battery in regard to being able to receive the 5kW of continuous power output from the Genious. Considering 1 of these 300V batteries will cost about 5-600 Euro, and require nowhere near the cost in cabling for 12V, the best alternative for ON-grid use should be quite obvious. For OFF-grid use naturally the total amount of Joule stored can be a much larger concern, but that is for everyone them selves to do the mathematics of what fits their situation the best.

2) Me, being ON-grid, will have MUCH use of the 5kW electrical output. I simply will sell the surplus back to the grid, essentially making heating my own house during Swedish winter free. That normally is the by far largest yearly running cost for a house in this part of the world and thus will amount to huge yearly savings. As a pure bonus I get instant (in less than 20ms) local emergency power as well as guaranteed non fossil fuel energy consumption, lowering both my carbon footprint, as well as my neighbors that end up buying the surplus electricity I supply back to the grid.


American wire gauge LINK


Thanks for the link. :)

Do I read the table right if noticing that not even 0000 (107mm2) is anywhere near being able to deliver 417A continuous power at sub 100 C (212F)?

I'm critical of the idea that specialized batteries are required, and question the need for constant 5Kw output.


It doesn't matter if you question the need for 5kW, the fact still remains the 5kW is there. The question that arises is the costs involved of how to move that massive amount of power into a battery bank. A very cost effective way to do it is one single tailor made 300V battery costing 5-600euro. Another way is 20 of your 430ish Ah led-acid batteries and cabling for the 417A current. Could you perhaps provide a ball park figure of the cost of that setup? Essentially, the cost of your current system x 2.25.

(btw, please use proper units, K = Kelvin, w = ??, k = 1000 and W = J/s)


You're dismissing my years of direct experience based on vaporware and empty assertions.


Im not dismissing any of your real life knowledge of how much power you are using, but I am dismissing any potential claims that your current battery bank would have a snowballs chance in hell of managing to receive 5kW of continuous power. These two things are quite different things.

As for vaporware and empty assertions, the reason I called inresol and had a 1h17min talk with the CTO was to verify for my self if this was either. After that conversation I'm personally convinced it's the real deal and if/when the thing shows up at my doorstep I'll make sure to post a pic. Also, all data they present the CTO said they have proper documentation and certificates for, on each individual part. Hopefully that documentation will be available on the website they are supposed to have up any day now.

No I don't smelt my own copper, and I fail to see your point.


The point is that you are lamenting about the carbon footprint horrors of sending 1 300V battery from Sweden to the USA, in the same delivery as the sterling engine, but it doesn't seem to concern you one bit that the total amount of copper needed for a 12V setup alone probably weighs in at considerably more than the entire 300V battery. And Sweden being a large exporter of copper it might ironically be shipped to you from pretty much exactly the same place.

I would bet $1,000 US that my off grid system contains less copper, and other heavy metals overall, than this system


Bet certainly accepted. One of your 430-ish Ah batteries alone probably weighs more on it self than 1 of these 300V batteries. 8 of them plus the huge amounts of copper, that together still are nowhere close to handle the same load, are sure to weigh considerably more. Once I get a battery I'll be happy to weigh it and the few inches of internal cabling attached and PM my account number to you to transfer the money.

and I know for a fact my US made lead acid batteries cost less to ship to my house than these super batteries would, and produced far less greenhouse gases in said shipping than would these super batteries.


I don't now what shipping 20 huge 430ish Ah batteries will cost, but if/when the Genious is sold in the US I presume it will be by a local distributor, not shipped 1-by-1 to end users cross the Atlantic. So what you state as a fact is most probably nothing of the sort.

My batteries are completely recyclable and can be replaced in a day.


Well, if you try to use 8 of them to receive 5kW, 1 day is all they will last as well...

Explain how 3000 watts at 12 V DC is going produce a greater carbon footprint than 3000 watts at 300V DC. I'd really like to see how that works.


Extracting copper from earth as well as shipping it across the world is a very carbon footprint heavy business. Thus using 12V technology, requiring 20-30x more copper than 300V technology, is completely insane from a carbon footprint point of view.


What utter tripe, and completely anecdotal. Automotive alternators suffer regular failures, and these aren't limited to coil breakdowns. Rotors fail, brushes burn up, diodes fail, bearing let go and even cases can break. Around here we have these shops that specialize in automotive alternator repair. I wonder how they stay in business with these "never fail" units in operation.


Of the literally hundred of millions being used every day, for sure there will be many that fail. It's not the same thing as the technology being inherently immature and especially prone of breaking. And until we get to see the specsheet containing the stated median time to failure for the specific part, anything you or I say is anecdotal.

They are not claiming it will run forever, but they do claim 20k hours maintainance intervals. Its pretty darn high, but it doesn't break your logic of that everything eventually fails.


The CLAIM is the issue. You have already stated that it needs 5-10 years of testing for off grid application. How the hell can 20K hours be claimed without condition specific testing? Short answer, it can't and it hasn't. It's an empty assertion.


The claim is based on actual testing of a development version of the same engine that HAS run 12 years maintenance free. I have already pointed this out earlier. This however does not automatically guarantee that it will behave as good for as long in every other location on the world. Nor does it guarantee that every single machine will have 0 incidents for 12 years. So yes, for sure there needs to be large long time field test in many different external conditions, before such a claim can truly be stated "under all conditions", but the claim itself is also by far not just an empty assertion. For the "residential home in Sweden"-situation the claim is essentially already verified.

Yep, and if the grid is available it's cheaper, and more efficient, to use it to charge the batteries in such a car.



I have no idea about what the electric power costs in the USA, but here in Sweden it is by European standards low (~20c/kWh including all taxes and transfer fees etc), but that is still 6x more expensive per kWh than firewood. At anything better than 15-20% percentile output as electricity I can thus, by selling the electricity to the grid, actually earn money AND heat my house for free in the winter. Or, I can charge a future electric car for free, while I in any case heat my house and/or hot water, using 100% non fossil fuel.


The average cost of electricity here is about 9.1 cents US per kilowatt hour. So my previous statement is true. It would cost more to run this system to charge a car, or anything else, than available power via the grid.
Charge that car for free? Even firewood has a cost if you cut it yourself.


Firewood, cut down and chopped into fireplace bit size and transported to your home run at about 2-3c/kWh here. If you have your own forest (common in Sweden) the price is even lower. So for Swedish conditions your statement certainly does not hold true. So what makes economical sense depends a lot on your local situation.

When the system does eventually fail who shows up to make the repairs? I note you failed to address this critical matter.


I will know where/whom to turn to here in Sweden. Obviously I neither have a clue nor care about how you will do this in the US as I know nothing about customer care practices, warranties, US law in the area, nor how or if these units will be sold in the US or not. At this point in time I'm not even sure Inresol has a detailed plan for the US either.


That absorption cooling you're talking about is not for the timid as anhydrous ammonia is the working fluid in most such systems. A leak in a residential setting could kill everyone inside.


These kinds of technology for obvious reasons are not very relevant for Sweden, but a quick google shows very many different types of methods. I suggest for domestic home usage one should probably not use a system that is likely to kill your entire family but instead chose one of the less volatile systems. But again, that is for each and everyone to decide for them selves after comparing all the facts.


Look, I'm highly skeptical about everything and anything. If there isn't empirical data to support a position I dismiss it out of hand. There is no such data and I do summarily dismiss it.


Well, the paperwork is supposed to be there. I have yet to see it for my self, but I also have yet to pay for the equipment. So at 0c current investment I'm fine with waiting a bit longer for the documentation. At the point I open my wallet however I'm sure to have sen it, as without the proper paperwork I would not even be allowed to connect it to the grid and sell the surplus energy.

Bumpkin
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:42 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby Bumpkin » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:32 pm

What distresses me about high-performance Stirlings is that the design goals always undermine the only real Stirling advantage of not needing store-bought fuel. I don't have a pellet mill to fuel a special burner, but the woodstove in my house is going almost constantly for over half of the year and intermittently for the rest. Even a hundred watts to a battery... No matter, this technology may have a place, and who knows what useful bits may trickle down?
Bumpkin

stedevil
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby stedevil » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:39 pm

I completely agree with you Bumpkin. My own goal is to build a proper mass heating rocket stove, with a highly insulated heat riser acchiving complete combustion at 1000-1100 C and then feed the Stirling with that heat before it passes the "mass heat storage"-unit on the way to the exhaust outlet by which time I hope to get down to as low as 30-40 C temperatures.

However the by far hardest part to build oneself at home is a highly efficient, high power, Stirling. So the prospect of being able to purchase one off the shelf at a resonable price, packaged with advanced monitoring functions and ready to be hooked up to the grid, that sure is exiting in my mind. :) If that means I have to run it on purchased pellet the first winter or two, before having time to build the rocket stove for it, it's something I can certainly live with.

I assume the reason the Genious looks the way it does, specwise, is because they got a large order of several thousands of a mobile powerunit. It was the Swedish chamber of commerse that was contacted from abroad who refered the interest to Inresol as Inresol already produced small quantities of specialized Stirlingengines to goverment agencies, muncipalities and power companies. For company/professional use, having an eco-friendly alternative for a mobile diesel generator also means it has to be just as easy to manage for the workers as a diesel generator. Fully automatic and pellets poured into a "tank" from a plastic bag fit that requirement, axes, logs and manual feeding doesnt.

However I did get the info from Stefan that there presently are two Swedish woodstove manufacturers running their own projects of how to incorporate the Inresol Stirling into their products. Unfortunately he couldnt name them due to NDA restrictions. So there is hope for the future, even though a project might not lead to anything. Eg there had previously been a pellet-boiler manufacturer doing a similar project, which ultimately led to nothing.

mikeptag
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:41 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby mikeptag » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:31 pm

From my understanding, the battery and computer included in the stirling design is to balance the system and provide the optimum efficiency. For of grid use, the configuration is simple, and exactly as if you have a AC generator. You start the stirling and connect the ac output to a battery charger. You also have a transfer switch so when the stirling is running, the stirlings ac is running through the house wiring while the house 12volt battery bank is being charged. When the house batteries are full, the Stirling can be allowed to cool, and the house battery/inverter system kicks in. If the stirling is also needed for house heating, when the batteries are full, the stirling could be kept running the charge controller could be sent to a diversion load: electric heaters, or if more efficient to just allow the stirling to cool and use other heating like a wood stove.

mikeptag
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:41 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby mikeptag » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:58 pm

The configuration described above also allows for a smaller house battery bank, which means a smaller environment footprint, because instead of having a large bank/high wattage inverter to accommodate large loads, the stirling is simply run during those times to power them directly. Im picturing that the entire system could be automated to kick the stirling on when needed. I currently need to keep track of my house battery level and turn on a generator when needed manually. Off grid is something that I see as a life project that I am making better and better as I can afford it and better technology comes out. I am very excited for the GENIOUS!

It would be cool if the GENIOUS stirling motor was easily removed from the pellet heater so it could be placed in a solar dish setup for the summer, and placed back in the pellet heater housing for the winter :)

Also, I am wondering if the Stirling could be programmed in such a way that the amount of power needed controls the amount of fuel fed to the burner, so the Stirling isnt creating much more power than is needed. Kinda like a sinewave generators "eco mode" that slows down or speeds up the engine as needed, saving fuel.

mikeptag
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:41 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby mikeptag » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:25 pm

stedevil wrote: working towards a batterybank allows the engine to run much more optimally than if having to sync to eg 50Hz/60Hz AC (20-25% more efficient). :)


The above point is worth restating to back up why there is a high voltage battery included in the stirling system. I understand it as with an AC generator on the system there would have to be a governor, mechanical or digital, to regulate speed and they found that to be inferior. I think if they are also selling the engines by themselves it will allow others to experiment and perhaps come up with other designs that work even better and perhaps without a battery. One idea is perhaps pressurized air like in the Peugeot hybrid, that eliminates batteries and is way more efficient than hybrid with batteries which go bad over time. Reading about this technology makes me wonder if air powered technology will replace batteries in many applications. A Stirling/Air hybrid would be awesome!

stedevil
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby stedevil » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:38 am

mikeptag wrote:The configuration described above also allows for a smaller house battery bank, which means a smaller environment footprint, because instead of having a large bank/high wattage inverter to accommodate large loads, the stirling is simply run during those times to power them directly.


Indeed, and that is also a main reason Inresol upgraded from a 1kW model to a 5kW. Even for on-grid usage they quickly realized that the average kW consumption vs the peak consumption of a regular house (at least in Sweden) are two completely different things. If you have say 1kW average, the peak load can easily be 10kW. Because most of the day people are away from home, during which time almost no power is needed, then everyone comes home. Food is being cooked on an electical stove/oven (3-4kW), the microwave is on (1,5kW), the water boiler (2kW) while someone starts up the washing machine and tumble dryer (2-3kW), etc...
Then later in the evening people gather around the TV or go to bed, and the powerusage drops dramatically.

But to meet the power need during that peak of 1-2h/day, going with a 1kW output stirling will require a lot more juice in the battery bank than a 5kW. And thus it's also important not only that the batteries connected to the system can receive the 5kW, but also push out 5kW as well as that the DC-to-AC inverter can also manage to handle the 5+5kW load, day after day, year after year. Thus the inverter isn't speced for just 10kW, but substantially higher, to not strain the part (Stefan mentioned the actual value but don't remember it any more).

Additionally, going from 1kW to 5kW output also drops "average runtime per year" from eg 8500h to the currently stated 1700h/year (20000h in 10-11 years). In retrospect I guess, since it was the 1kW version that had run 12 years before maintenance... well, I'll let people figure out them selves what that could mean as far as reliability testing is concerned. :)

Im picturing that the entire system could be automated to kick the stirling on when needed. I currently need to keep track of my house battery level and turn on a generator when needed manually.


For the built in and extra bank of 300V batteries, as I understood it, there will be such functionality from the start. And since the control system is open source, it should definitely be possible to add that same functionality for non propietary battery bank monitoring.

It would be cool if the GENIOUS stirling motor was easily removed from the pellet heater so it could be placed in a solar dish setup for the summer, and placed back in the pellet heater housing for the winter :)


It is. That was one of my prime concerns as well (for wood stove heating though, solar dishes wont do much good for me :D).

Also, I am wondering if the Stirling could be programmed in such a way that the amount of power needed controls the amount of fuel fed to the burner, so the Stirling isnt creating much more power than is needed. Kinda like a sinewave generators "eco mode" that slows down or speeds up the engine as needed, saving fuel.


Again... open source control software... potentially the possibilities are limitless. :)

mikeptag
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:41 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby mikeptag » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:36 pm

Could the Genious could be used to make its own wood pellets? A $2000 wood pellet maker with a 5 HP electric motor running for an hour can make 110-265 lbs of pellets from sawdust, leaves, cardboard, grass etc. If I am understanding the design correctly, it should be able to handle the motors startup surge.

http://www.gardenheat.com/pellet%20mill%20page12.html

Is there any data on how many lbs of pellets per hour are burned by the Stirling?

stedevil
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby stedevil » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:10 am

It for sure could run a pelletmaker, but if you dont have use for all the heat created in the process, recouping the cost of the pelleter and your time spent doing it might be hard.

As for "how many kg/h", I guess you can just count backwards. If using the stated 30/60/10 (elevtric/heat-controlled/heat-uncontrolled(loss)) 30% of the energy content in wood pellets (typically 4,8kWh/kg) should be turned into electricity. So 3.5kg/h? Lets round up to 4kg to have margin for losses.

I know I also saw a long list of efficiency values using a lot of different fueltypes somewere on inresol webpages. Pretty bad resolution and hard to read, but I guess one can always ask for better copy via mail. :)

Inresol
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:46 am

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby Inresol » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:57 am

mikeptag wrote:Heres their main page complete with videos and specs: www.inresol.se

I was on their mailing list and recently received this email:



Dear all of you that are interested in our GENIOUS™ CHP Stirling generator :

Firstly, for the Swedish members, i apologize for my using english.
Secondly, I am sure that you are all now aware due to copywriter infringement our old name ‘MyPower’ - is now known as GENIOUS™

and Finally :

We are proud to announce that we are nearing the finish line and are starting production of the first components for the Stirling engine. We are representing the Nordic Pavillion in London between the 4th and 6th of March, and launching our stirling solutions.

Our plan is that we should be ready to take orders in June 2014 after we return from London, and complete the final european certifications. We currently have a corporate signed order for 10,000 engines to deliver before the end of 2015, therefore the production lines will be started immediately. Our new website is being developed and should go live in a matter of weeks. This will display a lot more updated info including how to buy, and package prices etc. as well as technical data.

We hope to have a global Launch of our products live here in Stockholm Sweden later on in the beginning of September if possible by hosting a live outdoor concert purely powered by GENIOUS™ generators running on biofuels promoting the power and the first truly ‘Green’ concert.


We Thank you for your continuing interest in the Inresol GENIOUS™ products, and will keep you informed of our progress.



Daniel Walsh CEO




http://www.inresol.se
INRESOL AB
Bruksgatan 7,
SE-81494
Älvkarleö Bruk
SWEDEN
mobile : +46 (0) 700 52 12 74

Inresol
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:46 am

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby Inresol » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:16 am

Dear All interested parties - can i direct you to our new website where new details, data sheets, technical documentation, prices etc are now visible. www.inresol.se


We Thank you for your ongoing interest in our Genious™ Stirling Solutions and appreciate you sharing our product information throughout your professional networks. We are currently looking for international distributors and re- sellers. Please feel free to contact us through the information posted on the website. Thank you

maston
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:18 am

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby maston » Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:55 am

The GENIOUS stirling generator have an automatic controller electronics built in that are operating at high voltage "inside", same as PV inverters, but it also have a low voltage connection (the range are from 40 to 600 Volt DC input) for solar or other DC input sources. We are thinking that this may be of use to connect the stirling generator with the other renewables as it has a 10kW high power inverter built in already.

The stirling generator unit are shipped with a small internal battery unit thats used as starter battery and to accommodate sudden change in power use, but its a small capacity of approx 1 kWh.

There is a second battery connector where its possible to add more battery packs to the first one of 2kWh to 20kWh (or more), as the electrical system allow many battery packs to be connected in a "daisy" chain. The optional added capacity batteries are placed outside the engine unit.

The controller automatically detects when a new battery are connected and share the power between the batteries it detects.

The engine automatically starts when the heater goes up in temperature. When the heat source disappear, it shuts down the operation automatically as well.

So its easy to use the stirling engine on different heat sources as it adapts to temperature and heat flux power automatically.

/Stefan

maston
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:18 am

Re: High powered Stirling going into production

Postby maston » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:50 am

The battery ageing test data of the Inresol battery indicate that cycle life are 3000 deep cycles down to 80% capacity.

We have not seen any Pb type battery that have such test data (durability) as the LifePo, but in our first test system of the stirling generator power inverter system we had a solar type Pb battery bank that was stated in the data sheets to have 1200 cycles, that survived pretty ok in real life operation between 2002 - 2010 so it did quite well for 8 years (we did cell balancing manually by connecting a second small charger to cells going low in SOC when necessary, it was a single family house of 220 square meters, 4 persons, and the battery was at 10kWh capacity).

That earlier project was published in a Phd thesis and some scientific journal papers in the area of NZEB ("net zero energy buildings"), but we never made any official publications at the time, as we where still developing the technology.

/Stefan, CTO, Inresol AB


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