The Carnot efficiency problem

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
Tom Booth
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

VincentG wrote: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:51 pm
"The difference between absorbed and rejected heat, becomes the heat that is converted to work."

That would mean the missing 83.68 joules/second of missing heat were converted into work.

That indicates an efficiency of 99.62%

Carnot efficiency given the ∆T is around about maybe 20%

So we have a discrepancy of around 80%
I know you are more intelligent than this Tom.

Most likely, only a small fraction of that heat is entering the engine, and after that the engine acts as an insulator itself, being a contained pocket of air with a foam block in the middle.

To make an accurate measurement of actual heat in vs. heat "rejected" would be very difficult.
One thing I think you are overlooking is that the "foam block in the middle" is not just hanging out stationary in the middle of the displacer chamber, it is alternately rising up to insulate the cold plate while driving the working fluid down forcibly against the bottom hot plate.

In that experiment, the bottom hot plate is being heated continually by scalding hot steam.

Do you really believe that you can drive compressed air forcibly against a scorching hot aluminium metal plate without it picking up a lot of heat?

Maybe you recall seeing this chart:
Temperature_vs_angle.jpg
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Near the middle where the curved lines crest the working fluid on the hot side. Not the hot metal plate, that is the straight line, the air inside the engine, due to the simultaneous compression of the gas by the piston, according to these readings is actually hotter than the hot plate itself.

Is it "a small fraction of heat" that causes the working fluid to heat up hotter than the hot heat exchanger?

So how, if the working fluid gets that hot, on the hot side under the displacer can the top of the engine stay so cool or manage to receive so little heat?

Because at that moment when the heat peaks to such a high temperature inside the engine the cold plate is covered, insulated from this heat. Also the displacer has pushed the air down away from the cold side so the cold plate cannot receive heat from the hot gas inside the engine.

After this, the crank passes TDC for the power stroke and the gas does work, expands and cools and the displacer moves to the hot side insulating the hot side from this cold while chilling the cold plate with below ambient temperature expanded air.

Maybe you also have seen this diagram I posted a long time ago.
Stirling_engine-cooler_by_Tom_Booth_CC.png
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As can be seen, heat enters the engine when the gas is forced down away from the cold side. The heat enters the engine but does not reach the cold side, before that can happen the compressed hot gas is allowed to expand as the crank passes TDC so the gas gives up energy to the piston during the power stroke and cools back down to ambient or colder, before coming in contact with the cold plate.

Here is the chart with the numbers from the cycle.
Resize_20230720_013022_2510.jpg
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And here again with the illustrations, I can't fit them all, but it shows how when the working fluid is hot, it is pushed away from the cold plate and the cold plate is insulated.
Resize_20230720_013021_1959.jpg
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The heat enters the engine expanding the gas to do work, but the hot expanded gas never comes into contact with the cold plate.
Tom Booth
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

Look closely at the illustration of the fluid dynamics under the displacer in #3 as the working fluid is forced down to pick up heat from the bottom hot plate. As the air heats up it is forced down away from the cold plate.

Resize_20230720_022635_5589.jpg
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No, I don't think the heat has any problem crossing the highly heat conductive aluminium bottom plate.

Yes, the heat has a big problem in trying to get through the highly insulative displacer.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

Right after this heat input and compression the crank passes TDC and the piston pops like a cork allowing the gas to expand and cool rapidly during the power stroke, like one of those "cloud in a bottle" experiments.

https://youtu.be/WeXuKd0vMRk

The cooling effect during expansion is greater than that in a "cloud in a bottle" experiment due to the simultaneous work performed by the gas while expanding

Right after heating and compression at TDC you get the cloud in the bottle cooling effect.
Resize_20230720_030015_5638.jpg
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Tom Booth
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

The expanding gas does work on the outside atmosphere as well as the mechanical work of driving the engine (and external load if there is any) which results in very rapid nearly instantaneous cooling.

So the hot gas is not forced back up against the cold plate so heat can be "rejected".

By the time the working fluid returns to the cold side it is already cold due to expansion with work out. (Conversion of the heat in the working fluid to the mechanical rotation of the engine or as Bill Nye would say "making something spin")

https://youtu.be/taDHMw38aE0
VincentG
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by VincentG »

Tom, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Earlier you did not want to accept the heat rejection from water evaporating with the drinking bird, and now you are using phase change to make your point.

The expansion ratio of the cloud in a bottle experiment is far greater than your LTD engine. Add in the phase change, and it's not even close to the same thing.

The basic formula that Matt provided is a good start to debunk the efficiency number you think your engine is achieving. Even if you assume only 25% of the supplied heat makes it into the engine, you will still see horrible efficiency in terms of power output.

It seems you are also taking the Carnot efficiency formula too literally, thinking the only metric is how hot the cold plate will become. The formula is intended to suggest the percentage of heat that can be applied to work output assuming a perfect engine that does not lose heat to the environment.

Please keep in mind that I too think great efficiency is possible with a hot air engine, but not with a toy LTD.
Tom Booth
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

There is an interesting passage in the Wikipedia article on the caloric theory:
Sadi Carnot, who reasoned purely on the basis of the caloric theory, developed his principle of the Carnot cycle, which still forms the basis of heat engine theory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_theory
Is this really true?

How is that possible when the caloric theory has been thoroughly disproven?

Maybe this(?) Kelvin in his review of Carnot's book:
(worth reading in its entirety, emphasis added)

Now the ordinarily-received, and almost universally-acknowledged, principles with reference to "quantities of caloric" and "latent heat" lead us to conceive that, at the end of a cycle of operations, when a body is left in precisely its primitive physical condition, if it has absorbed any heat during one part of the operations, it must have given out again exactly the same amount during the remainder of the cycle. The truth of this principle is considered as axiomatic by Carnot, who admits it as the foundation of his theory; and expresses himself in the following terms regarding it, in a note on one of the passages of his treatise:[4] "In our demonstrations we tacitly assume that after a body has experienced a certain number of transformations, if it be brought identically to its ​primitive physical state as to density, temperature, and molecular constitution, it must contain the same quantity of heat as that which it initially possessed; or, in other words, we suppose that the quantities of heat lost by the body under one set of operations are precisely compensated by those which are absorbed in the others. This fact has never been doubted; it has at first been admitted without reflection, and afterwards verified, in many cases, by calorimetrical experiments. To deny it would be to overturn the whole theory of heat, in which it is the fundamental principle. It must be admitted, however, that the chief foundations on which the theory of heat rests, would require a most attentive examination. Several experimental facts appear nearly inexplicable in the actual state of this theory."

7. Since the time when Carnot thus expressed himself, the necessity of a most careful examination of the entire experimental basis of the theory of heat has become more and more urgent. Especially all those assumptions depending on the idea that heat is a substance, invariable in quantity; not convertible into any other element, and incapable of being generated by any physical agency; in fact the acknowledged principles of latent heat,—would require to be tested by a most ​searching investigation before they ought to be admitted, as they usually have been, by almost every one who has been engaged on the subject, whether in combining the results of experimental research, or in general theoretical investigations.

8. The extremely important discoveries recently made by Mr. Joule of Manchester, that heat is evolved in every part of a closed electric conductor, moving in the neighborhood of a magnet,[5] ​that heat is generated by the friction of fluids in motion, seem to overturn the opinion commonly held that heat cannot be generated, but only produced from a source, where it has previously existed either in a sensible or in a latent condition.

In the present state of science, however, no operation is known by which heat can be absorbed into a body without either elevating its temperature or becoming latent, and producing some alteration in its physical condition; and the fundamental axiom adopted by Carnot may be considered as still the most probable basis for an investigation of the motive power of heat; although this, and with it every other branch of the theory of heat, may ultimately require to be reconstructed upon another foundation, when our experimental data are more complete. On this understanding, and to avoid a​repetition of doubts, I shall refer to Carnot's fundamental principle, in all that follows, as if its truth were thoroughly established.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Reflec ... /Chapter_4
Kelvin, along with the lot, Clapeyron, Clausius etc.knew of the work of James Joule but consciously chose to ignore it, continuing the development of their theories on the basis of the caloric theory, completely ignoring the principle discovered by James Joule that heat and work are interconvertible, that heat is not a conserved quantity.

Heat that is transformed into the mechanical rotation of the flywheel is not in some way hidden or latent in the working fluid requiring removal to the sink to bring the engine back to the state it was in prior to the heat being added.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

VincentG wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2023 7:00 am Tom, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Wanting to have your cake and eat it too is believing heat can be transformed into work and somehow still remain to be "rejected" to a sink. That, if true, would be a clear violation of conservation of energy.
Earlier you did not want to accept the heat rejection from water evaporating with the drinking bird, and now you are using phase change to make your point.
I don't deny heat is "locked up" or "disappeared" in a phase change. Evaporation results in cooling, not because heat is lost to heat up some other cold object or substance. Evaporation is not cooling by conduction.

Yes when the phase change process is reversed heat is generated.
The expansion ratio of the cloud in a bottle experiment is far greater than your LTD engine
Be that as it may, the principle is similar, but the cloud in a bottle lacks the work output of an engine which multiplies the cooling effect.
. Add in the phase change, and it's not even close to the same thing.

The basic formula that Matt provided is a good start to debunk the efficiency number you think your engine is achieving. Even if you assume only 25% of the supplied heat makes it into the engine, you will still see horrible efficiency in terms of power output.

It seems you are also taking the Carnot efficiency formula too literally, thinking the only metric is how hot the cold plate will become. The formula is intended to suggest the percentage of heat that can be applied to work output assuming a perfect engine that does not lose heat to the environment.

Please keep in mind that I too think great efficiency is possible with a hot air engine, but not with a toy LTD.
Your entitled to think what you want. IMO there is no difference in principle between a small working model or "toy" and any "real" engine.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

It seems you are also taking the Carnot efficiency formula too literally, thinking the only metric is how hot the cold plate will become. The formula is intended to suggest the percentage of heat that can be applied to work output...
Show me a course, lecture or textbook example in all of academia that does not take the Carnot efficiency formula 100% literally. Taking it literally as a mathematically precise "Law" is the universal practice. The textbook examples purport to be able to determine the minimum number of Joules that must be rejected exactly.

Should we redefine "heat rejection" in a heat engine as heat the engine refuses entry rather than heat that passes through to the sink? Heat that never entered the working fluid of the engine at all?
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by MikeB »

The "Cloud in a bottle" demo - it's not really an experiment - is largely a demonstration of the rather surprising properties of humidity and vapour saturation, not of temperature directly. The cloud forms because the loss of pressure moves the dew-point. (I've seen it done much more impressively, with a large, sealed syringe, where the temperature change is irrelevant.)

I don't see any issue with the quote above from Kelvin. If you simply replace the word "heat" with "energy" then I think it totally fits with modern understanding, doesn't it? He's saying that if you revert any system to a previous state, it must have the same inherent energy as before.

My biggest problem with the diagrams above is that they seem to think that an engine only has four states, which may be reasonable for an IC engine, but in reality a Stirling needs to be modelled with at least eight states, and in seven of those states, the working fluid has contact with the cold end...
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

MikeB wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2023 11:21 am The "Cloud in a bottle" demo - it's not really an experiment - is largely a demonstration of the rather surprising properties of humidity and vapour saturation, not of temperature directly. The cloud forms because the loss of pressure moves the dew-point. (I've seen it done much more impressively, with a large, sealed syringe, where the temperature change is irrelevant.)

I don't see any issue with the quote above from Kelvin. If you simply replace the word "heat" with "energy" then I think it totally fits with modern understanding, doesn't it? He's saying that if you revert any system to a previous state, it must have the same inherent energy as before.

My biggest problem with the diagrams above is that they seem to think that an engine only has four states, which may be reasonable for an IC engine, but in reality a Stirling needs to be modelled with at least eight states, and in seven of those states, the working fluid has contact with the cold end...
I'm not interested in debating semantics; is it an experiment or a demonstration, or the definition of dew point or how many "states" there are in a cycle.

Contact does not necessarily involve heat transfer.

You seem to be missing the point in quoting the long passage from Kelvin regarding the Caloric theory which I tried to emphasize by highlighting in bold.

"if it (the engine, specifically the working fluid) has absorbed any heat during one part of the operations, it must have given out again exactly the same amount during the remainder of the cycle"

Whatever heat goes in must come out again, AS HEAT.

And; "heat is a substance, invariable in quantity; not convertible into any other element"

Joule's findings completely overturned these assumptions.

Heat is not a substance or an element, it is not invariable in quantity, it can be converted, the amount of heat entering the engine does not have to equal the amount of heat leaving,

Most importantly, the heat entering the engine does not necessarily have to be "rejected" to any "sink".

Where Kelvin writes: "In the present state of science, however, no operation is known by which heat can be absorbed into a body without either elevating its temperature or becoming latent, and producing some alteration in its physical condition; and the fundamental axiom adopted by Carnot may be considered as still the most probable basis for an investigation of the motive power of heat"

He mentions Joule, but either did no know about or simply ignored Joules most important discovery, that heat and "work" are interconvertible.

He recognized the Caloric theory was on shaky ground, but chose to treat it "as if its truth were thoroughly established."

Maybe some day in the future the foundational theory of heat (the Caloric theory) can be re-evaluated, but for now let's just put our heads in the sand and forge ahead as if the Caloric theory was unquestionably true, and so, this same willful blindness continued through the entire future course of thermodynamics down through history to the present.

The whole language of thermodynamics is infused with Caloric theory. We have "Reservoirs" of heat, with heat "flowing down" from a high to a lower temperature.

If the heat "flowing" down to the "cold reservoir" cannot be measured experimentally, it is imagined that such a transfer must be somehow taking place regardless.

At least Kelvin understood that some re-evaluation would be necessary someday in the future; "when our experimental data are more complete", it seems that never happened.

As pointed out in the Wikipedia article"

"Sadi Carnot, who reasoned purely on the basis of the caloric theory, developed his principle of the Carnot cycle, which still forms the basis of heat engine theory."

The whole of thermodynamics is an exercise in pretending the Caloric theory is true, basing all assumptions on it as the fundamental foundational axiom from which everything else follows. It's a continuing denial of reality that demands a cultish allegiance. To question it is heresy.
tibsim

Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by tibsim »

The practical fact is that even though the voltage (temperature difference) is high with our Stirling engines, if the wire is thin (the working gas is rare the due to atmospheric pressure), the energy is still lost also. In other words, we cannot make a high-efficiency machine at atmospheric pressure. I really like this brainstorming.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

There is a fundamental fracture in "reality".

A break between the Caloric and Kinetic idea or theory of heat engine operation which thermodynamics generally attempts to reconcile, apparently without ever recognizing or acknowledging that any conflict or contradiction even exists.

Carnot stated flatly and unequivocally"
The production of motive power is then due in steam engines not to actual consumption of the caloric but to its transportation from a warm body to a cold body.
The pure, or original "Carnot engine" or cycle made no provision or allowance whatsoever for any interconversion of heat into work or work into heat.

Yet, in the thermodynamic literature generally, Carnot's statement, quoted above, is reaffirmed as if it were actually true, cited without qualification or comment or the falsity of the statement is altered or glossed over by inserting the word "some": "some heat is converted to work" as if that somehow resolves the contradiction and makes everything OK.

Some examples:
Bright Hub Engineering

The Laws of Thermodynamics Were Discovered by Sadi Carnot

Discussions on Ideal Engine
...
The engine working on Carnot cycle is the most efficient engine because in this engine there is no friction at and no exhaust gases are emitted. In the ideal engine there is no conduction of heat between different parts of the engine, which are at different temperatures....

He also made it clear that the maximum efficiency of the engine was dependent not the type of fluid used by the engine, but on the temperatures between which the engine is operating, which he considered the motive power of heat.

Path breaking findings for the Second Law of Thermodynamics

With these discoveries Carnot made two conclusions:

1. The production of motive power is then due in steam engines not to actual consumption of the caloric but to its transportation from a warm body to a cold body.

2. In the fall of caloric the motive power evidently increases with the difference of temperature between the warm and cold bodies, but we do not know whether it is proportional to this difference.

These findings were the foundation for the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the natural tendency of heat is to flow from high temperature reservoir to low temperature reservoir.

https://www.brighthubengineering.com/th ... art-three/
In reading these passages, no indication is given that Carnot's statement is anything less than a foundational axiom, discovery or "finding"

In the Caloric, or in Carnot's world view, "Motive power" or "work" is conceived to be the result of heat being "transported" by the working fluid so that none is lost in the process. There is no "consumption" of heat for the output of useful work.

This is the naive conclusion reached by Carnot's water wheel observations.

Water goes into a bucket at the top of the water wheel and ALL of the water is let out at the bottom. Work is accomplished but no "fluid" is lost or "consumed" or converted. The heat just runs in from the "high reservoir" on the hot side of the engine and runs out into the "low reservoir" on the cold side.

If heat were actually some kind of fluid, the fact that this contradicts observable reality and is a violation of conservation of energy might be avoided somehow, but if heat is recognized to be a form of energy, then we have a problem.

If heat is energy, and work is another form of energy how can the heat flow through the engine from the hot to the cold "reservoir", like water through a waterwheel, producing work output in the process? You would have the production of energy as "work" out of nothing, or heat energy being used to create more energy.

This conundrum is routinely passed over, treated lightly or just ignored. Quite often it is treated as a kind of wonderful miracle.
This simplest heat engine is called the Carnot engine, for which one complete heating/cooling, expanding/contracting cycle back to the original gas volume and temperature is a Carnot cycle, named after Sadi Carnot who in 1820 derived the correct formula for the maximum possible efficiency of such a heat engine in terms of the maximum and minimum gas temperatures during the cycle.

Carnot's result was that if the maximum hot temperature reached by the gas is TH,
and the coldest temperature during the cycle is TC,
(degrees kelvin, or rather just kelvin, of course) the fraction of heat energy input that comes out as mechanical work , called the efficiency, is

Efficiency = TH−TC/TH.


This was an amazing result, because it was exactly correct, despite being based on a complete misunderstanding of the nature of heat!

https://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/class ... Engine.htm
Wow! "exactly correct"!

I've strained to discover when, where or by whomever, or by what method or means this was actually verified to be "exactly correct".

Here we can find a brief discussion on a physics forum:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/d ... ry.650289/

Reference is made to "Truesdell's 'The Tragicomical History of Thermodynamics 1822-1854'.

Andy Resnick said:

The most complete source for information like this is Truesdell's "The Tragicomical History of Thermodynamics 1822-1854". To summarize: Laplace invented the caloric theory: heat is never created or destroyed. Carnot did indeed use this theory, for example when he wrote "Thus the production of motive power is due... not to any real consumption of caloric, but to its transport from a warm body to a cold body..." However, Carnot's result- the analysis of a cyclic process- does not make use of caloric theory. As Truesdell writes: "The spectators ... will see that the protagonist while seeming to smelt lead has cast a gold ingot."
Needless to say, I don't personally find such arguments, that somehow Carnot pulled off some kind of miracle convincing or "scientific" in the least, but that seems to be about as much in the way of proof ever offered.

Carnot somehow pulled a rabbit out of a hat and came up with the right answer, in spite of being wrong. That his theory contradicts conservation of energy is just glossed over and ignored.

In the carnot cycle/engine, heat is absorbed by the working fluid effecting a state change. The gas expands in volume without a drop in temperature, as the usual drop in temperature that would normally result from expansion is compensated for by the absorption of heat.

Subsequently that heat is transfered to the cold "reservoir" and the gas is "compressed". There is no elevation in temperature that would normally be associated with compression because this heat is taken away by the cold "reservoir".

In short, the heat is transported

This process is completely "reversible". Like turning a water wheel backwards, water can be lifted up again!

But it is apparently imagined that some kind of "efficient" conversion of heat into work takes place in this device through this process of taking in heat and letting it out again. Somehow this is believed the "most efficient engine possible". An engine that simply takes in a quantity of heat and let's it out again, without any reduction of that heat. What goes in must come out, AND we also have the greatest possible production of useful work output to boot!

It was observed however that in a REAL engine, not all the heat came back out. The numbers didn't add up.

How to account for the missing heat? Why did some of the heat seem to vanish?

Was it recognized that "some" heat was actually being converted to WORK?

Apparently not. The heat was being lost to "ENTROPY".

Is any of this rational? I am hard pressed to find any logical consistency in all this. These ivory tower conclusions reached about "ideal" engine cycles have no real world correspondence.

You may as well say that no horse can run as fast as a unicorn as to say no engine is more efficient than a Carnot engine.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

tibsim wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 2:12 pm The practical fact is that even though the voltage (temperature difference) is high with our Stirling engines, if the wire is thin (the working gas is rare the due to atmospheric pressure), the energy is still lost also. In other words, we cannot make a high-efficiency machine at atmospheric pressure. I really like this brainstorming.
Interesting analogy, however, I believe you mean current (amperage) or power, or energy volume generally rather than efficiency or energy utilization..

Electrical power can be transmitted very efficiently, given appropriate wire size, load and so forth.

I would say a Stirling engine is more an energy transformer rather than a conductor or transmitter.

The establishment of a "fact" or "law" even if ultimately true does not rest upon metaphor, analogies or mere quips, assertions or suppositions.

You cannot disprove a statement like "no horse can travel faster than the theoretical speed of a winged unicorn.

Science does not generally tolerate such foolishness. In the field of thermodynamics however unsupported assertions of this sort take root and proliferate.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Fool »

Good points. I might add that a simple modification to the caloric theory would be to consider the temperature of the caloric. Caloric flowing into the engine is at a higher temperature, containing a higher amount of energy, than the colder caloric being rejected. The difference being the work out. Conservation of caloric, energy, and thermodynamics.

During an adiabatic process there is no flow of caloric.
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Re: The Carnot efficiency problem

Post by Tom Booth »

Fool wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:15 pm Good points. I might add that a simple modification to the caloric theory would be to consider the temperature of the caloric. Caloric flowing into the engine is at a higher temperature, containing a higher amount of energy, than the colder caloric being rejected. The difference being the work out. Conservation of caloric, energy, and thermodynamics.

During an adiabatic process there is no flow of caloric.
That could be done.

So let's take a look at it.

I boil water on the stove. The "energy carrier" shall we call it? (caloric) transports heat/energy from the stove burner through the pot into the water.

Now the water contains this caloric at an elevated temperature, this caloric in the water at elevated temperature is similarly transported across the engine hot plate into the working fluid.

Energy is utilized by the engine and the caloric is let out at the lower ambient temperature across the cold plate.

This still does not explain why in using this caloric to transport energy, although I am free to transfer near 100% of the energy from my stove to the water with no "law" restraining such an action, once transfered to the working fluid of the engine, only 20% of the energy transported into the engine, (at best given the ∆T between ambient and boiled water) can be utilized.

Somehow, for some reason, or no reason at all, the other 80% of the energy transported into the engine must also continue with this carrier (caloric) right back out at the lower ambient temperature, though this energy transport out of the engine can apparently go on in some way which completely avoids detection.
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